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Oct 02, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17
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#1 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Reduce senseless Map Grinding by unlockable Bonus Map Areas
haven't you got the experience too:?
You've played through a campaign, and you stand after that at like 94% or so for Cartographer Title in Tyria and you don't know really where you have to search for the rest? Then you search on Solution Sites and must hear, that some big areas exist in the Game, that you can reach only by a silly Necromancer Skill, that warps you to dead Corpses, but are are not a necro, nor have this Class as 2nd, which would mean, that you have to change your Secondary Class and to get the needed Skill, only to be able to get 100%... Yeah, im totally sure, lots of people made the same experience like I made. People, which have enough of senseless Wall Hugging, like as if your Characters won't believe, that something exists, when they don't kiss it with their face before and touched something for minutes and looked around in 360°, only to be sure, to have explored every slightest shit around them, because unfogging maps is so extreme dumb made in this game in certain places. Places like Dunes of Despair, the Frot Gate, the Wilds, Shiros Final Fight (the Island where u need to get banned by him for), this one Junundu Challenge Mission, that you can't freely explore without making the Challenge Mission, that you can't again freely explore, because you have to kill certain numbers of monsters, to be able to explore the whole map, but before u made this, U'll be chased by like 2-3 of those damn ghosts, which can easily kill you... and so on. In kind of the Tyria Missions, it would be alone awesome, when Anet would change those places finaly, that they become explorable, once you did the mission, so as it works in Fa and NF, why not the same in Pro -.- ? No, the player must make in Tyria ever the Mission, to be able to explore the places, that sucks ... change this please to the system, how it works in FA/NF. Its far better, when you can explore the Mission Ares freely, once U made the Mission ( and don't forget then to implement ways in Frost Gate/ The Wilds, which give you the possibility to explore those corners without Necromancer Warp ...) However, to my originally Idea > Unlockable Bonus Map Ares, which should count for the Cartographer Title for 1% per Map (6 Bonus Areas) How to unlock?: Simple beat the Game, then will appear some new Quest NPC#s, which wil lead you to the new unlocked explorable Areas, or open u simple ways, which were before closed. (Would be a nice way to make out of some unexplorable places on the maps finally explorable ones, this game has tooo much unexplorable areas, its like, as if only 30% of our maps are explorable and the other 70% only exist, to make the map look like a world map.... Examples of Places, with huge yet unexploreable, which could be theoretically used for: Tyria: Why not make an unlockalbe explorable Bonus Area in this huge Half Island (assumed as Orr) west of the Crystal Desert or something, which is more in the East/North East of the Desert going from the Tombs There is lots of Place in the northern Maguuma Djungle, this big red corner with this wonderful huge lake North of Kryta, again a good place, which could be an unlockable bonus area to explore, once you've beaten Prophecies Around Ascalon, there are these big black Mountains in the south with this nice piece of green to the south west On the Fire Island, there are 3 little unused isles. Beneath the Lornar Pass is a big chunk of Shiverpeak Mountain to be able to theoretically explore. That are now 6 huge places in Tyria, which could be used to give us players some Bonus Places to reduce the silly map grinding. Give each area a bonus place for 1% and that would be 6 wonderful and very helpful %, which would reduce very nicely the silly map grinding for every player, which has at least reach before in Tyria 94% and even that you have to reach first and I think 94% are hard enough to reach first, there must be the players not be punished by endless map grinding for 0,1%'s, when the game would need only 6 unlockable small Bonus areas (Elite) that can be easily cartographed by normal playing without wall hugging. Examples for 6 Areas of Tyria: Orrian Half Island: Ruins of Arah (make this simple a very big Town which counts 1%) there could be also then some new NPC's with new elite quests, maybe a armor npc with a new elite armor like the Obsidian (Arahian Armor) Far Northern Maguuma: Lake of Twilight (this nice big lake will be again 1%) North Kryta: Kryta Castle (another new big Town with the Castle of Kryta which counts then 1% filled with new Quest NPC's for Kryta) South Ascalon: Mount Ascirs (explorable through an underearth cave near the Fort, which will lead to the Mountain Fire Ring Island: Isle Delta of Destiny (on each Isle is 1 Tower of Destiny) When all 3 island were explored and player was on all 3 towers, those 3 towers will conect to each other and produce a Warp Gate on the Orrian Half Island, which will lead the the Underworld (for a maybe future Add on about the Underworld, making out of this place more, giving it more explorable areas, imo the Underworld as it is in the moment is too small for a Underworld, theres even no connection of from the UW to the FoW or any of the gates from NF, but all things play in the UW, so why make not out of the UW an own little world with finally its own little World Map pe add on, the gate of Destiny will be then the entrance ^^ Crystal Desert: East of the Tombs: "Shrine of Sands of Time" ( a new Challenge Mission, so that Tyria has finally one too 6 places > 6% additional Bonus for map Exploring, to reduce senseless Map Grinding for 0,1%'s =============== Now to Cantha: Cantha again has lots of unused areas: the bigger island under Shing Jea, the huge part of mountains east if this island and the part of Kaineng City or let it be an other town ^^ 50% of the Jade sea ..simple unused and again the mountains south east of this huge part of the jade sea North east of the Jade Sea, again a big mountain area unused, that are now so muhc areas, the whole game is so small, it could have theoretically have lots more of missions and competitive missions, then only jade quarry and fort aspenwood. Cantha could have easily 10% of additional Bonus Areas after completing the game, so much unused potencial has this map,k cantha is like 10% used, 90% unused, thats very sad ... and I'll really hope, cantha will get soon an add on, like GW:En, to give this map more content, especially in competitive missions, like aspenwood, playing and playing over years ever only the same competitive missions is boring Examples for Bonus Ares: Isle South of Shing Jea: "Ran Chuong" ,this island is Home of the Tengus, which travelled over Time by the 2 little islands to Shing Jea. After defeat of Shiro, those peaceful Tengu made a Contract with the Humans on Shing Jea. The island can be reached through the Harbour per Ship (the Ship icon needs in my opinion so or so more clickable places, then only the 3 main towns of each campaign and balthazars tempole ....) (1,5%) Mountains west of Ran Chuong: Luxon Territory "Mount Snowfeather" (1,5%) (Competitive Mission) City in the West wil not count for title, , but be explorable for some new quests (Wuonlang Village) West side of the Mountains are the Luxon, east side near their forest is the kursick side for the competitive mission, which means Wuonlang Town is a Luxon Town Mountains south east of the Jade Sea: Kurzick Territory "Mount Nibelungen" Competitive Mission, Mount Sie > Kurzicks, Sea Side the Luxon Massive parts of the southern Jade sea will get explorable to reach the mountains, but won't count for the title (1,5%) Mountains north east of the jade Sea, Canthan Territory, so neutral behind the mountaisn is a nice place for another new Town for new quests. A Harbour Town, reachable by Ship (1,5%) makes in total again 6% which would help really to reduce the massive senseless grinding for 0,1%, espcially in cantha, because there you have to grind most ..., the game would receve 2 new competitive missions, and I think, this could be only good for the game, making Factions more interesting and not so quick boring, people would play more competitive missions again surely ... ============== Now to the last: Elona this is the best used map of all three, but it has quite some huge unused areas, which could be used for explorable unlockable bonus areas First we have this small Half Island and this big corner near the Compass, then follows to the east of that half island a nice huge mountain and then lastly to the east of vaabi, the whole huge east is unused, inclusive of the little island in the south To bring in here too nice 6% of additional unlockable bonus areas for the playthrough following examples: The Half island: Ifrit's Volcano ( a volcano full of Djinns with the King of Djinns Ifrit (2%) (includes the Island under the volcano) reachable via Ship Mountain west of Volcano: On this Mountain is "The Temple of the Sun" (Town) becomes new base of the Sunspears instead f this dumb cave (will have new npcs for new quests) (1%) Small island in the East: (1%) Island of Trial (a special Dungeon) anyone who has played any RPG of Lufia will know, what sort of Dungeon i mean wit this ^^ North of that little island on the brown area: "Valley of No Return" (2%)(reachable through the barbarian shore) Sure, i don't expect any of those changes for free, but it would be all awesome stuff for future add ons ^^ |
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Oct 02, 2007, 12:26 PM // 12:26
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#2 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Valencia, Spain
Guild: Green Arse Team
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If you increase the explorable area, you also increase the requirements for title.
So, you are just making more difficult to achieve the tittle. Instead of doing crazy wall-hugging you can use texmod to help you with cartographer. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47
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#3 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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Why?
Grandmaster Cartographer is for the fanatics. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09
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#4 | ||
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Quote:
When you give for example tyria now those bonus ares, max percent will be 106%, the bonus areans won#t count then in for the 100%, So when you would theoretically have still 100%, there would be the 6% bonus left over. That would be 6%, the player can use by normal playing with normal exploring without wall hugging. What do you think, what I'm doing and why i make this suggestion ? Because i still use Text Mod and see through this program, which extreme senseless Hunt for 0,1%'s the game is, once you know, where u've not explored everything. Once you are at like 95%, thet last 5% won't be only 1 big place, that is easily explorable, not, those 5% will be split up in hundreds of extreme tiny spots, which count maybe for 0,1% ... very often U've even to explore like 3 or 4 of such very tiny spots to receive even 0,1% .. Thats especially in Tyria so the fact, because its the biggest map, where exploration in % brings lessest points over time. Without Text Mod, getting 100% would be impossible for anyone with bad Comps, because players with bad comps won't be able to make the Map Compare with a photoshop program, cause alone opening the picture of the needed size will kill any bad comp very quick, when you have only like 512MB of Cache, than goes ur PC very quick into the reds, that alone by 1 picture, now think of the impossibility, when thinking of opering 2 such pictures in photoshop and working with them in that program .... impossible with any PC with too low Cache. However, this thread is not about Cache Problems and Map Compares. the Suggestion is for more Bonus Map Area, which should be unlocked, when a player plays through a campaign. A player, which has at that moment then still got together the 95% has then not to grind per text Mod for hundreds of tiny map pieces in hunt of 0,1%'s, for weeks over months, no the player had then to explore only the unlocked bonus areas by normal playing without senseless wall hugging for ages to get the last need 5-6%. The stupid need of exploring such dumb corners in missions like Dunes of Despair, the Frost Gate and the Wilds would then fall away forvexample of tyria, no need then anymore to make such annoying explores with getting forced to have this silly Necromancer Skill to be able to explore those impartant little areas... No need then anymore for players in Cantha, in the fight vs. Shiro, to wait for being banned on that dumb isle, when they should better concentrate for the sake of their team on killing shiro, instead of running to him in hope to get his aggro so that he bans you... That are all such silly things, which realy don't improve a game's gameplay and fun. Sure, Cartographer Titles would be then easier to gain for all those players, which still are at like 94%+, but I think ,all those players would have deserved it, 94% is hard enough to reach without the help of any bonus areas, just by exploring the given normal areas, and anything, what helps reducing senseless grinding is imo absolutely ok.... Being a Grandmaster Cartographer should be also Skill > Time and for me personally, wall hugging everything for ages has nothing to do with Skill. Wall hugging has only to do with lots of time, for hunting 0,1%'s at hundreds of different places, once u know, where they are through Text Mod. Since people use Text Mod, this title has so or so no "value" anymore, like people here like often to say, so can the developers implent better direct some nice bonus ares, increase so on all maps the ratio explorable areas vs. the unexplorable parts of the maps, make factions on the same time more interesting by new competitive missions and give the general Pve player also soe new stuff to do by new quests, which would be getable in the new towns. all this done by 1 or 2 add ons, and Anet makes with those changes even again money just by improving explorer tiltes with some new little content and improving with it also factions with new competitive missions, also when that are not 3 flies with one clap, then I don't know ^^ PS: Quote:
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Oct 02, 2007, 01:12 PM // 13:12
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#5 | |
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Hell's Protector
Join Date: Oct 2005
Profession: R/Mo
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Quote:
I certainly dont want it or care. So its for me? news to me. Dont say things that generalize things like that. THe cartography system is flawed. i agree and needs to be fixed. Last edited by lyra_song; Oct 02, 2007 at 01:15 PM // 13:15.. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 01:39 PM // 13:39
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#6 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Quote:
XDUhm, i care for everything, that unlocks me over time stuff for GW2 ..., the Game has enough Grinding, the player shouldn't grind for 0,1%'s, thats senseless, silly and just brainless to wall hug hundres of such little places, only in the hope to receive 0,1% more ... Would be the radic greater, with that players unfog the map, then would have players not to wall hug so much. The momentanous explore radic is imo too small. The momantaous radic looks, as if our characters could only see like 20 meters far and everything thats farer away than 20 meters, they can't see (explore) Yes, it is flawed, making new Add ons for the Campaigns, which give some Bonus Areas, that count towards the title would be the easiest way to reduce map grinding for 0,1%'s and to fix the problem, making exploration again more FUN, when you don't have to worry about, if you've maybe missed here and there now too much 0,1%'s, which will sum up together quick some full %'s and which you mostly can't see all, when you don't use Text Mod. As said, the title has so or so no "value", due to Text Mod ... so why care for "fanatics", which love to wall hug for silly 0,1%'s, when Anet could improve with some add ons the whole game, improving the gameplay by implementing some new competitive missions through the add ons and improvign with the add ons the whole gameplay, letting exploring become more fun, because U'll know, when you beat know the campaign, then you'll gain access to some new bonus elite areas and some new towns with new Quests and maybe some new elite armors ... My suggestion is like a Surprise Egg, improving 3 things in 1 ^^ and that all only for making Grandmaster Cartohraphers a bit easier to receive, once you reched still 95% by not having to worry anymore about so much tiny areas for 0,1%'s ... Then you have just to explore the Elite Bonus Areas and the new Towns and ur Grandmaster ... thats imo far better, then exploring for ages the whole maps in search for those tiny 0,1%'s .... PS: bonus unlockable areas won't stop any fanatic from grinding really everything, until their text mod map shows, that theres nothing to grind anymore , but such bonus maps would increase simple the fun factor of exploring ,when you don't have to worry about as said, if you missed now here and there maybe 0,1% and have to return to old places, just for grinding them, and then you get even forced to have a certain skill of a certain class, only to be able to explore important % ..thats imo a BIG NO NO for games like GW, a really big failure ... The game has enough people, which still have 100% and grind still and find new places, where they explore very tiny new things and end up theoretically with over 100% exploration, so i personally don't find it wrong, when the game would have unlockable bonus ares, which would increase the "space of possible failure", so that as said players don't need to wall hug everything in hope only not to miss any 0,1% ... Last edited by Phoenix Tears; Oct 02, 2007 at 01:51 PM // 13:51.. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04
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#7 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Cartographer is one of the "smarter" titles, since you cannot just grind it.
Unlike opaque number which you push up for most others, here you need to accomplish a task. One thing that makes this title so much less appealing is that it was an afterthought, and many maps weren't designed too well to handle this type of exploration. Necrotic traversal is not required. Period. You can use it to cheat a bit, and in Tyria in particular it gives you quite a large buffer. But it doesn't really change the difficulty. 94% of a map means you've got a long way to go. That's at least one or two full zones missing - not a tiny little edge somewhere. Even for dunes of despair, you do not need it, it's more than doable without with a running skill. Kill the initial attackers, then you have 3-5 minutes to explore the area. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 03:38 PM // 15:38
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#8 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa, USA
Guild: HoTR
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Quote:
As stated before, the only problem with the Cart title is that Tyria was not desiged for it. This leaves many tiny corners increadibly hard to map. If you dont want to go through all the trouble, then I suggest you be happy with 95% and maybe work on a title like Skill Hunter. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33
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#9 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Sure, mostly all those special places are easy, when U make them with guild mates or some special friends, from that you know, that they are good enough...
But what is with players, which are in no guild and want not to be in one, or with players, that have yet no goo friends ingame and like more to play solo with H/H ... A doubt not, that any Hero or any hench will ever explore for you the map, when your not a Necromancer and even then its still ever tricky to get those NPC's dead first, so that you can use Necrotic Traversal. @Antheus: You call endless "Wall Hugging" not grinding ? lol, what is wall hugging then for you ? Grinding has not only to do with powerleveling characters or farming points for other titles, or general farming gold ... Griding is imo also senseless wall hugging for exploring a map, when exploring could have been done better, by giving the players from the start on more "Space for Failure", so that you don't have to worry permanent on missing anywhere any little 0,1%. U need only miss 10 and you have your full 1% missed and u'll have to grind when unlucky 10 different places again to find those ten 0,1%'s. I ask you, where is the difference, if you grind now for weeks douzens of different places for their 0,1%'s to archive in the end 5% more, or if you play through the game and explore then some Bonus "Elite" areas, where you really know that everything in this those ares will be new to you and where you don't need then to wall hug, to explore everything. So its in the end then only easier 5 (6)%, which will save you up only lots of time, the other 95% that you've explore before the bonus ares are really enough and show enough, that you can explore good, the last 5 % should be then easier, so that the player can be sure, that he'll reach the 100% in an humanous time, and not after another weeks and months of grinding for douzens of 0,1%'s I've for example 96% in Cantha, those 4% that are missing for me, that is not only 1 large area ... no ,that are 40 or more tiny areas overall on the canthan map, which are ever olny 0,1% or lesser, so much tiny thing, that they sum up together the 4% missing. That means, I've to grind 40 or more different places all over the Canthan Map, only to get those last 4%, wherby I know, that I can get certain % only, when this Ass Shiro bans me on this Island... Going solo, for 100% ban chance, and i get only killed, before Shiro even thought maybe of Banning me, if he even uses it this way... @thezed: God, there is it again, the typical answer like: "if you don't like it, then don't do it", only packaged now in other words. sigh. I want do it, but in a humanous time and without grinding me dumb and silly for every slightest 0,1%, even grinding for some tiny things, that Text Mod showed me, that brought me then in the end nothing oO. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03
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#10 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa, USA
Guild: HoTR
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Quote:
"I want everything and I dont want to work for it" only packaged now in other words. sigh. Get it into your head: Anet has given you two choices: Go through the work to get the title, or ignore it. Wanting the title w/o the work involved is not an option and SHOULD NOT be an option. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30
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#11 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]
Profession: R/
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What I read was:
"I can't get past 94%, so add more areas to give me easy access to 6% so I can get my title." I spent a long time getting 100% in Tyria. And whether you believe me or not, I never used map overlays or another person to tell me where places I missed were at. I researched places I may have missed, and I used some of the Necrotic Traversal methods. However, in my research, I found people who claimed to never have used the Necrotic Traversal method, and still for 100%. It is an annoyance when you get close, believe me, I know. It is not 'broken', and does not need to be changed in my opinion. As for Elona, doing the challenge mission can be fun, and it is not too hard to stay alive long enough to map the entire area. It may take a few trips, but it is free to do it, and you can even get hero armor upgrades to use or sell. This post sounded like a cry-baby whiner asking for something to be done for him, instead of by him. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35
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#12 | |
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Alcoholic From Yale
Join Date: Jul 2007
Guild: Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]
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Quote:
Whiny bitch thread. Cartographer is a lot of work, and is for fanatical and devoted personas. Not for the lazy. Really. All this was is "I have 94% and I'm too lazy to use community tools to get the last bit, so I'm gonna bitch about the amount of work this is." /fail. |
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Oct 02, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52
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#13 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Quote:
Other like some stupid bunnies here, I thought about, how to improve the title and the game around that title, other then just writing dumb unconstructive offtopic comments and quoting for them whole postings. >.< |
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Oct 02, 2007, 05:58 PM // 17:58
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#14 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]
Profession: R/
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Do you truly think Anet will take the time to add new NPCs, quests, areas (which would include rez shrines, monsters, etc.), cities, and who knows what else? That is a HUGE addition, HUGE! And although it would be a nice addition to the game, if done well, it won't happen. Look up info on Sorrow's Furnace. Anet said there would not be another addition like it.
Somehow, I don't think you understand how much work what you are asking for involves. And the only reason I see you asking for it is "I can't get GMC  ".
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Oct 02, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07
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#15 | ||
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Quote:
I explicitely have written, that when something like this should come, then as Add On, like GW:EN (EotN) Quote:
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Oct 02, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16
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#16 |
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Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Our Crabs Know True [LOVE]
Profession: R/
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Um.... they are working on GW2, and small 'balance' issues and bug fixes. When will they take the time for a new game? You are asking for another expansion pack.... no going to happen.
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Oct 02, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25
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#17 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa, USA
Guild: HoTR
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Give it up Magma, OP is just here to cry. His name says it all really. Hopefully a mod will close this tread or we can all just let it die.
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Oct 02, 2007, 06:40 PM // 18:40
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#18 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Where do you want to know that, I at least know, that Anet has not said yet, that they won't make never any Add on for GW1 anymore...
Do you really believe, the world map of Tyria in GW1 will stay so, how it is now in the moment, with those 2 huge black sides ? I dont, Ibelieve in Anet, that they will make someday next Add On to keep the people which stay in GW1 busy, because they won't close the Servers of GW1, once GW2 is there... so so long people play Gw1 at least. and so long people play GW1, Anet can make money with it through Add Ons or even through new Campaigns, which still play in the timeline before GW2. (GW2 plays 150-250 years later than GW1) Don#t also forget, that Anet has more than 1 Team of Developers, nobody said, that all of them are working at GW2...there can also be, which works on new content for a next add on...who of us ill know that, until Anet makes no official stating ..so don#t be ever so hasty with those typical answer "This will never happen" YOU CAN'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN AND WHAT NOT!! As I also can't, but what i can is making suggestions in hope that the developers naturally read it and maybe get inspired for new add ons ... Yes I ask for new add ons, is that wished too much ? i don't wish them for an instant oO... Anet has all the time they want. When they really have not the time in the moment for making new Add ons, because all the Developers and the half world is working on GW2 ..then ok, but as long nothing official is said, that never a next Add on will be made, then GW:EN is forever the absolutely last thing, that was done for GW1, it may be allowed to make suggestions for new Add ons without getting the typical 0815-answer "this never will gonna happen" >.> |
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Oct 02, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56
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#19 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
Guild: Seraphim Guardians
Profession: E/
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Adding new areas? nah. Not going to happen.
PT: I can see your point and I am also steadly working on this title, however what you ask is not simple and will take alot of time. What I suggest MIGHT be a little easier to implement (ANet can correct me if I am wrong). Change the color of the fog over unexplored areas. Gray scale maybe... If you want a full color map you have to work for it.  My only gripe is the areas that are difficult to get into to chart, (like the Jade Quarry) but that isn't impossible, thanx to the GMC sections in this forum. (have you seen those? I suggest you look at the main menu), anyway, I would just like an ingame visial indicator of where to explore. It would be nice. I have seen some of the maps in GMC section, and the spots missed are really difficult to spot sometimes, but not the end of the world. Well I am off to see if I can get my Elona explore above 70%.  Later |
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Oct 02, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01
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#20 |
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Apr 2007
Profession: R/
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umm have you read Gaile's thread at all????? She stated that theres NOT going to be anything added to the game!! Developers are working on GW2, they ONLY have a small group working on bugs,etc.
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| Actually play pvp at tomb is senseless | ..shade!! | Gladiator's Arena | 1 | Aug 10, 2005 07:21 PM // 19:21 |
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